Just got hold of a 12gauge apparently belgian shotgun with a mark reading AB and an M below, surrounded by a small circle with a crown on top. Navigation (GPS, altimetres, compasses, maps), Immediate shipping on a all products listed. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. These marks are the Belgian Lion rampant over the letters S.C.H. Fakes and fraudulentmakers' marksare not a recent invention--note what William Greener said in 1835 (seemy earlier post of April 20, 2014). Worldwide Logistics for all your products. That last photo will give you an idea of the relative thickness of the stock at the wrist - typical Brit (Belgian) 4 1/8th inch in circumference! Ithaca opened in 1883 and built a number of different boxlock-style side-by-sides, including the Crass . But despite the history the belgian proof stamps are rather straight forward, normally one can't get more information from the proof more than it has been done if one can't find the inspectors mark. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. Belgian shotguns are still finely-made firearms and are considered some of the best to come out of Europe. Applied to all gun not made in Belgium but proofed in Belgium. Hi, Jeremy. United States Police prefers using shotguns because of their comparably simple usage and aiming for close and mid-range fighting. The words are French: "canons" meaning gun barrels, "acier," steel, and "garanti" meaning guaranteed or warranted: "Barrels warranted steel. Search. The 1136 is engraved on the bottom of the barrel. What does 12 over C mean in a triangle? Hand Guns 5 Rifles-Shotguns 1 . The mark is applied after the gun has passed the Belgian proof. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. It's as useful in a duck blind as it is . Since the evolution of the modern side-by-side and over/under hammerless shotguns in the late 19th Century, Belgian gunmakers have turned out some of the best. This will be an on going Comblain There is no doubt that this system contributed much to the good report in which properly proved arms were held, and laid the foundation of much export trade. It was used by a myriad of hunters for all kinds of wild game. I have a Belgium 38-40 with a 7 in barrel all matching. so that means it is for sure a 12 gauge? in the A to C range of the alphabetical order. Delcour-Dupont was a barrel maker in Nessonvaux, Belgium. Counet Philippe I have my grand dads Belgian Browning A5 Sweet Sixteen. If not, consider it loaded and potentially dangerous. is 1.220 kg (43.00 oz). These might cursive as well. As mentioned, Damascus barrels were made from strips of iron and steel wrapped around a mandrel in "barber pole" fashion, and the spriral pattern can usually be seen clearly. So the only indicator of the chamber depth is found with the stamp of the Chamber dimensions? Antique Double Barrel Shotgun: Identifying, Valuing, and Buying European&other - Long Guns - Bolk Antiques In 1888 it was decided by a joint meeting of the Gunmakers Company and the Birmingham Guardians that a new supplementary proof for smokeless powder should be instituted in 1893, 1896, and 1904; the rules were further adjusted to allow for new powders. Chartier These marks are customarily the cipher of the gunsmiths guild and the mark of the State or city. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. Bovy Thodore Joseph The lack of chamber length probably means it was made before 1892.Is there a name on it? Belgium Infantry Arms List (Current and Former Types) - Military Factory Courard Birmingham had also a proof, but this test was not obligatory, and makers evaded the tests. Colette Victor These are original antique muzzleloaders that are made by individual gunsmiths or small manufacturing concerns, usually prior to the era of mass production, but sometimes well into the mid-19th century. Chaineux J. referred to more commonly as "Proof Marks", After years of looking at and trying . Still, this company firmly has its roots in the good old U.S.A. John Moses Browning is a legend of firearms history. Beau, I need help finding out more about this pistol.. leg in a circle star over the k in 3 places and a crown over jj and the name j. Cueruy and NR under the grip. with this information in an attempt to clear up some wrong information #1 A buddy at work inherited a very nice customized Mauser from his dad. I have a Belgian muzzle loader pistol with the cylinder marked "ELG" in a circle with a star underneath it in the circle, there is also a "D" on the cylinder underneath the proof mark. Ithaca Gun Company: One of America's most successful gun makers. Sounds like a 19th C. Belgian pinfire shotgun (grin). Hard to identify or value firearms - NRA Museums: Members . Old Belgium 12 gage double barrel shotgun. These firearms Muzzleloading, breech loading, accessories, Airborne weapon pod systems, ammunition, vehicle mounted weapon systems, Gas-piston-operated weapon systems, firearm accessories, drop-in triggers, patriotic artwork, bolt carriers, bolts, upper receivers, barrel nut heatsinks, E^2 (E-Squared) barrels, Handguns, shotguns, machine guns, battle rifles, Suppressors, optics, ammunition, clothing, Springfield, Massachusetts armory location, (Special Warfare Operations Research and Development), This page was last edited on 20 February 2023, at 21:10. Entries are listed by initial year of service descending, then grouped by designation (A-to-Z) to better showcase a given country's evolution in the field of infantry arms. Berleur Guillaume It's complete. have a great day! Bury Jules. Hits and Misses: Dating a Double-Barreled Hammer Gun - Blogger Comblain - Dorther Hubert Military firearms can be difficult to identify because they 1 On the chamber or or lock on muzzle loading which has passed final black powder proof. 2023 Military Pay Chart Military Ranks DoD Dictionary Conversion Calculators Military Alphabet Code Military Map Symbols The "Military Factory" name and MilitaryFactory.com logo are registered U.S. trademarks protected by all applicable domestic and international intellectual property laws. The "1136" might be the serial number for that pair of pistols. Inspector's marks can not be used to establish date of manufacture; they were re-used over time and the significance of some has been lost. Comblain H. J. Hand Guns 8 Rifles-Shotguns 2 . Mauser Serial Numbers DatabaseMAUSER PISTOLC-96 (BROOMHANDLE)DATES OF individual armorers and inspectors used their own unique stamps in some Hand Guns 24 Rifles-Shotguns 22 . On barrel action of breech loading shotgun after the gun has passed proof with semi-smokeless powder . The IZh motorcycles and automobiles are manufactured by. There are literally thousands of small individual makers, and often such . Provisional black powder proof for breech loading guns, since 1924 reserved for smooth bore barrels. On January 27, 1910, in Liege, a Justice of Peace heard a case of gunmaker's employee Joseph Bury vs. La Zurich insurance company. Since the U.S. has no proofing houses (as in England, France, Germany and . Belgian Shotgun Identification The Banc d'Epreuves de Liege proved 233,526 double barrel smoothbore guns in 1889, the majority for export. Rifle: Included in this lot we have a Belgian Flobert Style Warnant . Thanks a ton this, helped me identify a friends old revolver. 1840-1860. The inspectors mark is still an secret so the list here should be regarded as uncertain, but it can in some cases give a more accurate dating that the stamps. In 1849 the additional ciphers for provisional proof the letters E.L. in script, enlaced, and the sign of the tower of Liege a little obelisk upon a pyramidal base, also shown on the right [above]. The Baby Browning in . (copy right L.R. Identification on a Belgian Liege musket, real or repro? Measure your Cogswell and it should be about that.The barrels are 32" and the gun weighs approx 73/4 lbs. The first on the left and the fourth (the one that resembles a candlestick)indicate provisional proof. Belgian Liege gunmakers (D to F) - Volume 2 The text is written in French AND English. By Alain Daubresse. How Foreign Guns Invaded the U.S. - Bloomberg.com Carl Russell & Co Gunmakers Ltd, Stable Yard, Hatfield Park, Hatfield, Hertfordshire AL9 5NQ. I think the barrels of that gun are solid steel, and the marking would seem to bear that out, but the gun should be examined by a knowledgeable gunsmith before firing with modern ammunition. "Arsenal" or "Inspector Marks". In some cases this cipher is also preceded by the figures 16, and followed by a capital B., also surmounted by a crown. Revolvers are marked on barrel, on the frame, and on each chamber. Birmingham did not establish its proof houses until 1813, and though another Act was passed in 1815 to strengthen the former, the laws were not stringent enough, and the Birmingham proof was not recognized as sound until much later, when the Act of 1855, still unsatisfactory, and the eventually satisfactory one of 1868, was passed. Length of chamber over diameter of chamber. The numbers 138 G(looks like a 1) are under the proof mark. Their total production was around 180,000 guns. Come join the discussion about optics, hunting, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! to identify antique arms from different parts of the world, we decided Oftentimes it makes no sense to let go of the past, particularly since shotguns from higher-quality Damascus steel are as shootable today as they were 150-plus years ago. arsenal marks, you will find other marks or stampings. Vintage Belgium double barrel identification | The Firearms Forum Sorry for the delay in getting back to you, Brandon, but I've been out of the country w/o internet access. for exports be able towithstand a proscribed load without damage. Heyday of the Shotgun: The art of the gunmaker at the turn of the last century. Beuret Frres firearms. Project Upland. Are you sure they are Damascus and not perhaps fake Damascus made by etching a spiral pattern on solid steel barrels for those who liked the look of Damascus? No small part of the Belgians' remarkableability to meet the demands of a wide variety of firms trading all over the world was their willingness to go on producing type of guns that were obsolete. wolf and human romance manga J.C. Higgins Model 31 Parts, Schematic | Numrich Gun Parts Manufacturers J.C. Higgins Rifles 31 J.C. Higgins Rifles 31 Parts List Sort by: Show Available 0 Schematic w/ Parts List 2 Driving Spring 3 Driving Spring Guide 4 Barrel 5 / 6 Bolt 8 Buttplate Screw 9 Buttplate Trim 10 Cartridge Lifter 11 Cartridge Lifter . Bertrand Antoine This mark is found on guns that is not made in Belgium by countries that use proofs that is not recognized by the Belgian Proof House. The drawings vary in style due to differences in the original information.Most are black silhouettes, but some of those that have been produced from photographs have a quasi 3 dimensional appearance that requires the onlooker . Its weight I also looked at other European proof marks but didn't find the one you mention: compare http://www.cornellpubs.com/Catalog/proof-marks-intl.pdf. The slot for the pin had to be welded up and a firing pin installed.I dont know when pin-fire cartridges ceased being manufactured, but Id guess they were still available until the early twentieth century. As for proof marks, the oval with E/LG/* inside makes it indeed Belgian. Boden Beckers G. Good examples of the information that can be derived from adequate images. The "D.D. Prices: side-by-side, from 53,000 + VAT; over-and-under, from 65,000 + VAT. It passed proof for nitro which at the time would have been a service pressure of about 9,000 psi. Under their charter the Gunmakers Company had powers to prove and mark all manner of hand guns, daggs, and pistols, and every part thereof, whether made in London or in the suburbs, or within ten miles thereof, or brought thither for sale, or imported for foreign parts. Rich engraved. Hey I have a F. Dumoulin & Co. 12 gauge side by side with double hammers. Any maker's name on the rib between the barrels?Best,Gerry, 1902 a greener twobarrel it has hh on botten of barrel what do i have. The crude VIII on each barrel aren't proof marks but a means to ensure matching tubes for this set of barrels. These include the Originally evolved by the armourers themselves, the system of proof was in nearly every arms-producing country taken over by the Municipality or the State, who imposed a series of stringent by-laws and penalties on any who sought to evade the prescribed tests. Sorry for my delay in responding: I've been OOT and off-line for two weeks. Bronne Gustave It's very old but I'd like to know more about it. Closset Louis - Remy Hubert Behr Jean jacques Forum, http://www.littlegun.be/arme belge/artisans identifies d/a delcour dupont gb.htm, http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html, http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_Trade_Marks.html. I would be grateful to any lover of arms who possesses authentic dated weapons, or has catalogued a private collection, if he would send to me, in care of my publishers, any such information which will add to the mass of fact available. 29 Classic Guns: Old Rifles, Collectible Shotguns, and - Field & Stream Thanks Hause. Original Antique Gun Parts for Sale - International Military Antiques The first cipher is the crossed branches surmounted by a crown, and with a cross or star in the three other angles. It was mandatory post-1924. Bernard Ernest The mark was seldom requested, Chamber dimensions in millimeters shotguns undergoing smokeless proof. . Thanks so much. The third is a plain stamp, with the letters A.V.E. As I've said, I'm not an expert. Purchased by Val Forgett of Navy Arms in 1978. Introduced for handguns in 1894, rifles over 8mm in 1897. PDF BELGIAN PROOF MARKS - - Hunting.be I've owned two Belgian side by sides and two Browning Superposed, so I guess I can say that I have some acquaintance withtwentieth centuryones, but unlike my posts on antique English shotguns I don't have an antique Belgian one at hand to describe. 1870-1898. Designates rifled barrel. On top between the barrels "CANONS ACIER GARANTI". location, rather than a manufacturer. I have pics of the Proof marks I want to show you. Due to the This devotion to Americana papers over the foreign status of all three gun companies: Glock. Bernard Emile & Cie The are no available records of these old Belgium shotguns, Because of the action and style the best guess would be an era, between 1920 and 1940. A Beginner's Guide to Collecting Vintage Side-by-Side Shotguns The family was in the barrel making business from the 1880's until mid the 1960's. http://www.littlegun.be/arme belge/artisans identifies d/a delcour dupont gb.htm This is Jean-Baptiste Delcour-Dupont and his son Oscar, 1924. OldGuns Newsletter . Further changes were initiated, when smokeless powder necessitated more stringent conditions of proof. weapon. Example of inspectors mark, any letter can be used with a crown. 3 vols. We have just started to assemble this on going source of Proof In its small version its a acceptance mark on barrels that was exported in a unfinished state 1846-1893, In its small version its a black powder mark on small pistols and revolvers barrels 1866-1893, In its small version its a black powder mark on small revolvers cylinders 1866-1893. stream - Galoppin will normally provide the information needed to make a caliber Belgium Leige - The DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Firearm Proof Marks, Arsenal & Inspector Marks Hunting, fishing, cooking, and other critical aspects of life. Any info will help. It is was built using a very thick Please someone let me know that they know about these Belgian doubles! A reader hasasked me to say something aboutBelgian proof marks. Baker, David J. The British Sporting Gun and Rifle: Pursuit of Perfection 1850-1900. I can't find any other mumbers on the gun other than the multiple proof markings that I will post later. CLIMAS Tradename used by J. Stevens Arms Co. on guns. old belgian gun makers - Telecore Digital Any help would be appreciated. vast quantity of data to treat, the global work was parted in a series of publications, Barrels are not rifled- does this mean it must be a shotgun? The proof marks for Eibar, in Spain, are the letters Po, surmounted by a crown. Bastin Frres Can't help much w/o some photos (send to ghcox3@gmail.com). If the price seems too good to be true, it probably is. Clement, Charles Pistol and revolver manufacturer in Liege, Belgium, c.1886-1914. Weight of proofed barrels, after 1924 fractions of grams no longer used. American gun manufacturers moved away from Damascus barrels and on to tubes made from fluid steel. I'm still working on a date and it seems like narrowing it down by what years it could'nt be from might be a better strategy. Each gunmaker is presented with the maximum Key Findings. Side by side shotguns of this era are highly collectable and our inventory changes frequently. Four barrel . Belgian Liege gunmakers (A to C) - Volume 1 - HLEBOOKS.com Proof Marks or Henri Pieper (left) and Nicolas Pieper (right) Henri Pieper was born and raised in modest German home in Soest (Westphalia) Germany on Oct 30, 1840. I believe you'll find that the E in a diamond symbol is the mark used by the Timothy Eaton company of Toronto Canada. The second is the crossed branches, with the letters A.E. ]v8 >ZX 2Fu}) Buy Belgium Shotguns For Sale At Auction | Invaluable Collard Henri - Roux Jacques Courard N. The size of this book of 232 pages The 1KG 545 is the barrel weight in grams. determination. I know the bottom image. You may know how to do this: put the ramrod down the barrel and mark it with a pencil at the muzzle. Without a photo, I can't add anything to what you already know: it's a handgun made in Belgium. Debouxthay was a gunmaker in Liege, Belgium, active at least from 1888-1904. Scroll through our inventory of antique pistols and handguns from our cartridge pistols and revolvers category below. It could be almost anything: an English Greener, which would have Birmingham, England, proof marks, or it could be a double of dubious origin. ~JP2lLn)wMO(;%vvRnS>2sw~zG!D""L0MW#+J%d)g"#Q4H&D4&KdU_};g|CN>Is>X&'vqFc&Pkr3EjZ1M&|dv55*6GI?/cOra#2K;cW>rLFtgtycw^4RiK-myVS[${XZw ho"=^f%DeiG wPnD6#diqSg].GI24?>.0 ?~wXy$6Sd3Ln2IdLL_#6)G7OE)7igF. All 24 Shotguns made in Belgium, Belgian made Shotguns from ('Manufacturer') Home > Product Catalog Shotguns made in Belgium category Firearms/ Small arms 731 Rifles 237 Shotguns 359 Pistols 134 Blank/Signal/Rubberball pistols 1 Black powder/Muzzleloader 2 Ammunition 3 Ammunition Components/Reloading 20 Seen Thank you for Comblain Hubert Joseph After investigation of proofmarks I realised it is a Belgium manufacured gun from Liege. Hand Guns 2 Rifles-Shotguns 0 . They are often found in combination with proof-marks, and still more frequently on unproved arms made in countries where no official proof was existent. . for identifying the acceptance and proof marks as it appears, many Belgium double barrel 16 Gauge SN 13938 preBelgium double barrel 16 Gauge SN 13938 pre 1898 fine old Belgium imported exposed hammer shotgun, Leige proofed, floral engraved receiver showing some; FINE 19C. Midway USA sells a CO2 kit to unload both flint and percussion guns.Best,Gerry, hello, what does a 'z' also indicate on a Begian pinfire revolver cylinder please. The major countries which either did not have proof or whose marks were not recognized were the U.S. and Spain. I'm a ypunger collector/gun activist. Proof and Armorers' Marks - The Book of the Pistol Just as many muzzleloaders were converted to breechloadersthink of the Springfield trapdoor action or the British Snidermany pin-fires were converted to center-fire guns. The Baby Browning: A .25 ACP Pocket Pistol For Personal Protection listed in alphabetical order. Thank y'all for your help ahead of time! HI, John. Do check with a gunsmith before you shoot it! If I was asked for a guess for a dollar I would say mid 1930's. Condition Grading Definitions For Antique Firearms, This website may not If you are considering buying a Belgian gun, look long and hard atits quality. There's no indication of gauge. All 24 Shotguns made in Belgium, Belgian made Shotguns from manufacturers.name.include? thanks for the help so far. All 31 Belgian gun makers, Belgium dealers and sellers and suppliers Austrian arms were marked with the double eagle, and later with the letters Wn 78; a variety of private marks of manufacturers are also in use. The second and third indicateit was proofed at Lige. Have had this gun in family for as far as i remember at least 40 years. Email: ghcox3@gmail.com. Christophe Louis The Standard mark for French Government arms was a crown above an E., and this crown has a three looped top, with the orb or ball and cross as ornament, and is so distinguished from the cross-crested crown of some St. Etienne weapons. A forum community dedicated to Shotgun owners and enthusiasts including the Remington, Beretta, and Mossberg shotguns brands. I can't tell if it was proved for nitro: those have a lion over the PV. Can you add any details? Parisa cipher of E. and P. set back to back (as shown below). )t/!Z $e9]DG=Ljr%@6) 8F&Kx[2l~WY7#|9&~L~G3jjV?~2SN?2&=qb'3d0W>l#G2;/|D)c~liS>2lVbD""L0M7;Q"gd)g"G{\3efBd. Knowledge of commonly used military ammunition assists As the old saying has it, "The buyer needs a thousand eyes; the seller, only one." Colard Louis - Counet Lonard Mark for optional superior provisional proof. 1899-2011 Modern Guns. The one on the far right is the definite proof for nitro, or smokeless powder. Christophe Henri Their cipher or mark was the letters G.P. Bernard Henri Eugne Bertrand Joseph No maker's name at all. Joseph Farrell on October 27, 2020: and hardbound book, written in English and French by Alain Daubresse, provide an extensive I can't ID the 'RM', who was likely the barrel maker. Using a shotgun shell (a self-contained cartridge with multiple small, sphere-shaped projectiles) instead of a usual bullet is what makes a shotgun a separate kind of a gun. rifle,over a 12 ga. shotgun. Carl, I've checked Wirnsberger's Standard Directory of Proof Marks as well as those listed at Cornell Publications, and came up empty handed. U.S.A.Most pistols exported from the United States are not proof marked in their country of origin. Sorry! Needless to say, I bought the gunand it will never be for sale as long as I am alive. A "Greener" double? A complete list of suppliers of shotguns. Underneath the whole appears the word St. Etienne. Belgian Best Shotguns - CHUCKHAWKS.COM A.H. Fox guns came in 12-gauge, 16-gauge, and 20-gauge. John Browning's Auto-5 set the bar for semi-automatic shotguns. I have two sets of wood handles and artillery holster with marks of 7 ; 44; 105C. Inspectors mark, normally these are kept secret. If you have a question or would like more information, please call (877) 214-9327 or email info . Subcategories This category has only the following subcategory.
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